What is pruned at salvation as apposed to what God prunes after salvation, John 15:3.

Title: What is pruned at salvation as apposed to what God prunes after salvation, John 15:3.


John 15:1 I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.


John 15:2"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it, that it may bear more fruit.


John 15:3"You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.


The key words to understand in verse 3 is “already clean.” It is the adverb “already” plus the adjective of the verb in verse two, “prunes.”


God the Father prunes the branches that are bearing fruit so that they may bear more fruit, or divine good production.


In our interpretation of the word pruning we have associated it with suffering for blessing. But there is one thing that we have failed to emphasize.


When suffering for blessing victory over or overcoming the suffering is realized through application of pertinent doctrine.


In other words, it is not the suffering itself that prunes me but my application of doctrine to the suffering that prunes me.


Pruning results in the removal of portions of the self-life that have been drawing energy away from divine good production. This is accomplished when the believer recognizes the power and blessing of Bible doctrine.


In suffering the believer sees for himself the very power of doctrine, the blessing it gives to the heart, mind, and body as well as the blessing that it brings to those he is associated with.


Also, the ugliness and hopelessness of the self-life is also realized and therefore abandoned in the pursuit of the life beyond dreams.


Therefore, doctrine is in view in this analogy, but not its perception or metabolization, but its application from the launching pad of the heart. This in turn becomes wisdom.


Wisdom is the full realization of the power and blessing of doctrine applied under the filling of the Holy Spirit and its fruit to God’s happiness.


If I know the doctrine, know how to avoid quenching and grieving the HS, and now how to apply the doctrine in any circumstance, and am convinced of its power and blessing, then I have attained wisdom.


An example of this comes from David after he had lost his kingdom to his son Absalom he was in the wilderness with his mighty men and a man of the house of Saul called Shimei saw David and his men coming and he shouted curses at David and threw stones at him and his men. David’s men loved and admired him and one of them, Abishai, told David, “Why should this dead dog curse my lord and my king, let me go over now, and cut off his head.”


2 Sam 16:5 When King David came to Bahurim, behold, there came out from there a man of the family of the house of Saul whose name was Shimei, the son of Gera; he came out cursing continually as he came.


2 Sam 16:6 And he threw stones at David and at all the servants of King David; and all the people and all the mighty men were at his right hand and at his left.


2 Sam 16:7And thus Shimei said when he cursed, "Get out, get out, you man of bloodshed, and worthless fellow!


2 Sam 16:8"The Lord  has returned upon you all the bloodshed of the house of Saul, in whose place you have reigned; and the Lord  has given the kingdom into the hand of your son Absalom. And behold, you are taken in your own evil, for you are a man of bloodshed!"


2 Sam 16:9Then Abishai the son of Zeruiah said to the king, "Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king? Let me go over now, and cut off his head."


2 Sam 16:10But the king said, "What have I to do with you, O sons of Zeruiah? If he curses, and if the Lord  has told him, 'Curse David,' then who shall say, 'Why have you done so?'"


2 Sam 16:11Then David said to Abishai and to all his servants, "Behold, my son who came out from me seeks my life; how much more now this Benjamite? Let him alone and let him curse, for the Lord  has told him.


2 Sam 16:12Perhaps the Lord will look on my affliction and return good to me instead of his cursing this day."


2 Sam 16:13So David and his men went on the way; and Shimei went along on the hillside parallel with him and as he went he cursed, and cast stones and threw dust at him.


2 Sam 16:14And the king and all the people who were with him arrived weary and he refreshed himself there.


David said, let him curse, the Lord has told him to do so and so I will listen. It was about this time that David wrote many Psalms, including Psalm 23, the Lord is my Shepherd, I shall not want. I fear no evil, for Thou art with me.


David’s application of doctrine to suffering led to a part of his self-life being pruned with the result that he found more humility in submission to God’s will.


John 15:2"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it, that it may bear more fruit.


 “He prunes” – present active indicative of kathairo [kathairo] = to prune, to purge, or to cleanse. Present tense means that GF continually prunes the positive believer at the perfect time.


Therefore, continually doesn’t mean 247, but only at the times that in the perfect timing of God it has the greatest affect on the self-life. It’s always God’s timing and not yours.


John 15:3"You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.


The Greek adverb hvdhwhich means ‘already,’ plus the adjective katharos [katharos] = purged, cleaned, or pruned.


So in verse two we have the truth that God the Father continually prunes or purges the positive believer and in verse three we have the truth that the disciples are already purged or pruned or cleaned because of the word which the Lord already spoke.


Therefore, two different purging’s or pruning’s must be in view.


As we have already noted, the first pruning by GF is suffering for blessing which comes to the positive believer occasionally but constantly throughout his CWL if he remains positive.


To understand Christ’s second reference we have to go back to the beginning of the night just before the Passover meal, where He uses the same word.


John 13:1 Now before the Feast of the Passover, Jesus knowing that His hour had come that He should depart out of this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end.


John 13:2And during supper, the devil having already put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, to betray Him,


John 13:3Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come forth from God, and was going back to God,


John 13:4rose from supper, and laid aside His garments; and taking a towel, He girded Himself about.


John 13:5Then He poured water into the basin, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel with which He was girded.


John 13:6And so He came to Simon Peter. He said to Him, "Lord, do You wash my feet?"


John 13:7Jesus answered and said to him, "What I do you do not realize now, but you shall understand hereafter." 


John 13:8Peter said to Him, "Never shall You wash my feet!" Jesus answered him, "If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me." 


John 13:9Simon Peter said to Him, "Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head."


John 13:10Jesus said to him, "He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you." 


 “completely” – holos [holos] = whole, complete, every where. “clean” – katharos [katharos] = pruned, purged, or cleansed.


The same adjective is used and the same reference is used. The key word in John 15 is “already” clean referring to salvation, which it must, since in John 15:2, God the Father is continually pruning so that we may bear more fruit.


John 13:11For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, "Not all of you are clean."


One of them, Judas Iscariot, is an unbeliever and therefore he is not clean.


This cleansing of the entire body is obviously a reference to faith in Christ for salvation. Cleansing is a good translation here because Christ is using water as an illustration.


Water so often refers to the word of God by analogy and so here the washing of the feet refers to the doctrine of rebound.


As we walk through the world and are in contact with the world it is inevitable that we are going to sin. We wash our feet through rebound.


But Peter’s idiotic desire to have his whole body washed, because in competition with the other disciples for the Lord affection and promotion, especially with John, is rebuked by the Lord because Peter is already completely clean by means of a bath.


Bathwater that cleanses the entire body is a reference to the water of the Word that consists of the Gospel message. Gospel = “good news.”


Again, because water is being used in John 13, “clean” is a good translation. But our analogy in John 15 is not water, but pruning or purging the branches of a vine.


The Lord said, “You are already purged, pruned, or clean by the word I spoke,” also referring to salvation.


Therefore, the logical question is what was pruned or purged at the moment of salvation?


I would be so proud if you all shouted out the term I want to hear. Yet I know that you know it if you have been paying attention for the last couple months. Retroactive Positional Truth.


Retroactive positional truth – all Church-age believers have been identified with Christ in His death. The flesh has been crucified and buried and is no longer master over you.


What has been cut off? The flesh. This is also a reference to circumcision, but the spiritual, not the actual.


John 15:3"You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.


Before we pursue this a bit more, it is important to note why the Lord is bringing this up in the middle of His vine and branch analogy.


The Lord is emphasizing that fruit production is not for salvation, but rather a privilege after salvation. He is teaching them to avoid legalism.


Phase 1 in the CWL occurs in one moment when you believed in JC as your Savior. Phase 2 in the CWL occurs over the years from the time that you are born again until the time you die.


At salvation you are made completely clean. After salvation you have the opportunity to walk in a manner worthy of who you are in Christ and thus bear much fruit.


Much harm has been done to the truth of the Gospel and the truth of the mystery doctrine for the Church that is given for application after salvation by those who have confused these phases and thus fallen into legalism and religion.


All references to sin in Rom 6 are in the singular and so refer to the OSN.


Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase?


Rom 6:2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?


Rom 6:3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death [RPT]?


Rom 6:4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life [CPT].


Rom 6:5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death [RPT], certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection [CPT],


Rom 6:6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin;


Rom 6:7for he who has died is freed from sin.


Rom 6:8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,


Rom 6:9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.


Rom 6:10For the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.


Rom 6:11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.


Rom 6:12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body that you should obey its lusts,


Rom 6:13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness [experiential = fruit] to God.


Rom 6:14For sin shall not be master over you [rebound], for you are not under law, but under grace.


Rom 6:15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!


Rom 6:16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness [experiential = fruit]?


Rom 6:17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,


Rom 6:18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness [positional = salvationcircumcision].


Rom 6:19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness [positional], resulting in sanctification [experiential].


Rom 6:20For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.


Rom 6:21Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.


Rom 6:22But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification [positional], and the outcome, eternal life.


Rom 6:23For the wages of sin is death [spiritual], but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


The pruning that is analogous to salvation or being completely clean is circumcision.


Circumcision – the cutting off of the flesh at salvation resulting in a brand new spiritual species, therefore circumcision is analogous to retroactive positional truth, Col 2:11.

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